This area of Beirut is both scenic, orderly, and quite a location for those Francophones out there. There is a Starbucks, the luxurious ABC mall, $1.5 million apartments and many honking cars, welcome to Sassine Square in Achrafieh. Achrafieh, the mainly Christian area of Beirut is a hotbed of commerce and most of all, of politics, in the middle of the square is a memorial to Bachir Gemayel. The Kataeb Party, also called the Phalanges, is based here. While secular on paper it draws much of its support from Maronites and many Greek Orthodox. To many Christians it is seen as the vanguard of their cause.Pierre Gemayel the Nationalist & Kataeb
The party is also home to the Gemayel dynasty. The Gemayel family had been prominent Maronites and were an extraordinarily political family since the 1500s. The founder of Kataeb, Pierre Gemayel was once sentenced to death (as was his father and uncle) by Ottoman authorities for supporting an independent Lebanon. Gemayel also tired to launch a revolt against the French Mandate in 1943. The nationalistic Pierre Gemayel once said, "If my death would bring peace to this land, then wrap me in the Lebanese flag and burn me beneath the cedars."
Even though Pierre Gemayel had influence, Kataeb was still a minor party in the Lebanese poltical scene. Only in 1958 when Gemayel supported Camille Chamoun against pan-Arabist forces (led by Kamal Jumblatt, Walid Jumblatt's father) was he finally awarded with more power.
As with many Maronite and Christian parties, Kataeb considered Lebanese Christians to be a separate ethnic group from Arab Muslims. Kataeb, and its founder never supported Lebanon's inclusion in pan-Arab movements, such as the Arab League. Pierre, while an advocate and supporter of Palestinian rights, felt that the "Arab cause" (ie the Palestinian cause) only weakened Lebanon and drew it into more wars.
In the 1970s when militarism spread like wildfire through Lebanon, Kataeb was one of the main Christian parties to organize a militia and a military planning group, which was referred to by Kataeb higher-ups as, "the Security Council." Pierre Gemayel even played a role in the start of the Lebanese War.
Lebanon's War
In 1975, because of his right wing leanings and his aversion to Palestinian influence in Lebanon, Palestinian groups (this is speculation on my part, the gunmen were unknown) tried to have him assassinated (that operation killed four people) and then launched mortars into Christian areas of Beirut. Following his attempted assassination, Kataeb militiamen fired on a bus carrying DFLP/PFLP (Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine/ Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine) members killing 27-30. Many say the bus occupants were armed, but others disagree.
During the war the party had many distinct attributes. For starters it was the lead organization in the Lebanese Front and later the Lebanese Forces. Pierre Gemayel's son, Bachir Gemayel was both the leader of the Lebanese Forces, and then in 1982 became the president elect of Lebanon. Bachir was known for his Machiavellian tendencies, and soon he and Kateab dominated the Lebanese Front/Forces. Later in September, 1982 a Syrian bomb (planted by the SSNP) ripped through Bachir Gemayel's meeting in Achrafieh, killing him and many others.
In 1975, because of his right wing leanings and his aversion to Palestinian influence in Lebanon, Palestinian groups (this is speculation on my part, the gunmen were unknown) tried to have him assassinated (that operation killed four people) and then launched mortars into Christian areas of Beirut. Following his attempted assassination, Kataeb militiamen fired on a bus carrying DFLP/PFLP (Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine/ Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine) members killing 27-30. Many say the bus occupants were armed, but others disagree.
During the war the party had many distinct attributes. For starters it was the lead organization in the Lebanese Front and later the Lebanese Forces. Pierre Gemayel's son, Bachir Gemayel was both the leader of the Lebanese Forces, and then in 1982 became the president elect of Lebanon. Bachir was known for his Machiavellian tendencies, and soon he and Kateab dominated the Lebanese Front/Forces. Later in September, 1982 a Syrian bomb (planted by the SSNP) ripped through Bachir Gemayel's meeting in Achrafieh, killing him and many others.During the war the Lebanese Forces and Kataeb sought covert funding and arms from Israel. Even today many Christians are pro-Western and pro-Israel. Originally in 1976 the LF supported Syria's intervention in Lebanon against Palestinian and leftist forces. Later (around 1978), the LF reversed its position and saw Syria not as a liberator but what it was actually doing, using the war as an excuse for occupying Lebanon. The LF fought a protracted war against the Syrians and in 1978 actually won many battles. However, after numerous internal power struggles, and fighting against opposing Lebanese militias and the Lebanese Army, commanded by Michel Aoun, Kataeb and the Lebanese Forces were crushed.
Its interesting to note that the Lebanese Forces used to be considered an armed wing of Kataeb. After an internal coup launched by Elie Hobieka (the same man who carried out the Sabra and Chatilla massacres against the Palestinians) and Samir Geagea (pronounced JaJa), and then another coup which displaced Hobieka (mainly because of his signing of the Tripartite accord and his closeness to Syria), Samir Geagea transformed the Lebanese Forces into a separate political, militia, and patronage group. In the 80s and 90s (especially during Syrian occupation) Kataeb was dramatically weakened. Only following Syria's pullout did Kataeb have a resurgence in influence when they first joined the Qornet Shehwan Gathering, a mainly anti-Syrian grouping.
I had always been interested in the Kataeb party. Many Western commentators describe it as "Fascist," because of its modeling after Fransisco Francos Phalanges, and heavy use of the Roman salute. From my own research, the party seems is most definitely not Naziesque. The main reason for the name, salutes, and other quasi-Fascist aspects of the party arouse from Pierre Gemayel's admiration of the strength shown by European Fascist groups, a unity of strength rarely seen in sectarian ridden Lebanon. Economically Kataeb is most definitely not Fascist, it is more along the lines of a Labour or Christian Democratic style party in Europe.
Christian Isolation, Western Guilt & The Metn Meltdown
I visited "Bayt Kataeb" (Kataeb House) in Achrafieh a number of times over the past week. The offices are located in a white house with green shutters. On top of the house is a large poster of Bachir Gemayel, towards the middle there is a huge cut out image of Bachir Gemayel. A stylized triangular cedar tree is a symbol all over. Before one approaches Bayt Kataeb there is a collection of 6 mulberry trees in rows of 3, parallel from each other. This exact location was the site of Bachir Gemayel's murder in 1982. An illuminated torch, a wall with "Wanabqa" (we will always be here; this refers to Christians in Lebanon) written on it, and a brass plaque mark the site where he and others fell due to a Syrian bomb. To many Christians Bachir is a hero, and remains what could have been the solution to Lebanon's problems in the early 1980s. The common phrase heard is "Bachir Hay Fina" (Bachir lives inside of us).
The staff of Kataeb is incredibly pro-Western. As an American I was thanked numerous times for the support America gave to Lebanon. At the same time however these Lebanese also voiced their anger that Lebanon had been used as a bargaining chip in the "game" of Middle East politics. I was asked a number of times what Americans thought about Lebanon, "did they think it was all bombs?", "why do Americans not support us? We are Christians" said another. I met an older, bohemian looking man who was an elite fighter with the Lebanese Forces before Samir Geagea took control of it. He spoke no English but he smiled at me, you could see the tension in his eyes when I mentioned I was living in Hamra (a mainly Muslim area of West Beirut). After years of fighting, the Muslims were still his enemy. I was asked a number of times when America or Israel would start supplying the Christians with weapons, I could do nothing more than say, "America wanted the area to be stable", and ask "why would you need the weapons?" The answer I got wasn't the aggressive one I had originally expected, "we need to protect ourselves, many Muslims, especially Nasrallah, don't want Christians to be in Lebanon anymore." The main thing I kept hearing though was that, "Christian Lebanon is a light to the Christians of the Middle East, we are the only sizable number left, we give the other Christians hope."
I thought a lot about the awful press Kataeb and its fellow Christian parties received following events such as the Sabra and Chatilla massacre (carried out by Kataeb commander Elie Hobieka), and the things written about them by authors such as Robert Fisk. I believe much of it has to do with "Western guilt." We as Westerners feel guilty about our colonial/imperialistic/corporate mindset/history and so we beat ourselves up for it, often seeing forces that our are complete enemy (take the PLO or Hizbollah) sympathetically. We choose to ignore the injustices our actual enemy is doing, simply because we feel guilty in doing so.
Kataeb has been pro-Western, its supporters identify themselves with the US and France, nevertheless Americans see the Sabra and Chatilla massacres and are completely disgusted by Kataeb. However, many Americans haven't even heard of massacres commited by Syrian groups or the Palestinians. There were many, such as the Damour Massacre (600-800 were killed, and a village was destroyed), or the Massacre in Chekka (hundreds were killed).
Even Muslim on Muslim massacres were barely covered, for instance there was a second Sabra and Chatilla massacre carried out by Shi'ite Amal fighters, up to 1200 Palestinians were killed, that's many more dead than in the Kataeb massacre of the Palestinians. If you ask many American intellectuals (especially in the group I am with here at LAU) who the Phalange were the typical answer is, "a bunch of crazed nazi Christians who murdered Palestinians." Whey you ask them about the other massacres, especially those against Christians, it is simply written off. Am I condoning Hobieka's or some in Kataeb's actions? Most definately not! The murder of innocent people is a deplorable act, and yes, many Christians feel as though the Palestinians deserved it. However, I am trying to be far more objective than many Middle Eastern "expert" popinjays, who want to make the Middle East into a "black and white", "good (represented by terrorist groups such as Hizbollah or the PLO) vs. evil (Kataeb, Israel, or even the United States)" world.
The other reason I was at Bayt Kataeb was because of the Metn elections. Metn is an area that encompasses portions of East Beirut up through Bikfaya. The reason there are elections is because the MP from the area, Pierre Amine Gemayel, was assassinated by pro-Syrian bullets in his car. His father, former Lebanese president Amine Gemayel was running to takeover his murdered son's seat. Almost out of the blue, Michel Aoun's Tayyar movement contested the seat by running Camille Koury. To many this was doing Pierre Amine Gemayel's murderers a service. Tayyar is now in the pro-Syrian camp (along with Hizbollah, Bachir Gemayel's killers---the SSNP, Amal, and Franjieh's Marada), it was Syria's goal to knock off as many March 14th politicians as possible.
The elections are planned for August 5th (a day after I leave to go back to the US) and many have speculated they will turn violent. For instance in Sassine there was a Kataeb/Ouwet (Lebanese Forces) convoy of cars with flags waving. As the stopped some Tayyar members tried to beat up the Kataeb supporters. Fist fights are becoming a common occurance. This all reminded me of the December 2006-Febuary 2007 protests that ended up in sporadic violence.
The situation isn't helped by the fact that both sides have armarments. In one instance I was shown a collection of AK-47s by one of the parties, and was then requested, semi-jokingly to "tell George Bush we need more." There was some glimmer of hope out of all of the troubles, while talking to a younger member of Kataeb, I asked if he hated Michel Aoun and his followers, he answered, "they are my cousins, my aunt, my uncle, we can't just go kill them." The Christians of Lebanon are, for lack of better
terms, split down the middle. I talked to a pollster friend in Bikfaya (the main area where the election will be held) and so-far it was 49% favoring Michel Aoun and 51% in favor of Gemayel. The closer these numbers get, the more tension will result. Already most Lebanese are anticipating a huge amount of violence. If Aoun wins this seat, his ultimate goal, the presidency of Lebanon is his for the taking.
Here is a movie I made of Bayt Kataeb. I didn't film/wasn't allowed to film the building for security reasons.
This is a short clip I took inside an old Mercedes cab, it shows the Hizbollah/Tayyar/Amal/SSNP/Marada protest in the downtown area. If you look closely, you can see orange flags (Tayyar's color) with the Omega symbol on it. In addition some yellow Hizbollah flags are present.
Pictures:
I had always been interested in the Kataeb party. Many Western commentators describe it as "Fascist," because of its modeling after Fransisco Francos Phalanges, and heavy use of the Roman salute. From my own research, the party seems is most definitely not Naziesque. The main reason for the name, salutes, and other quasi-Fascist aspects of the party arouse from Pierre Gemayel's admiration of the strength shown by European Fascist groups, a unity of strength rarely seen in sectarian ridden Lebanon. Economically Kataeb is most definitely not Fascist, it is more along the lines of a Labour or Christian Democratic style party in Europe.
Christian Isolation, Western Guilt & The Metn Meltdown
I visited "Bayt Kataeb" (Kataeb House) in Achrafieh a number of times over the past week. The offices are located in a white house with green shutters. On top of the house is a large poster of Bachir Gemayel, towards the middle there is a huge cut out image of Bachir Gemayel. A stylized triangular cedar tree is a symbol all over. Before one approaches Bayt Kataeb there is a collection of 6 mulberry trees in rows of 3, parallel from each other. This exact location was the site of Bachir Gemayel's murder in 1982. An illuminated torch, a wall with "Wanabqa" (we will always be here; this refers to Christians in Lebanon) written on it, and a brass plaque mark the site where he and others fell due to a Syrian bomb. To many Christians Bachir is a hero, and remains what could have been the solution to Lebanon's problems in the early 1980s. The common phrase heard is "Bachir Hay Fina" (Bachir lives inside of us).
The staff of Kataeb is incredibly pro-Western. As an American I was thanked numerous times for the support America gave to Lebanon. At the same time however these Lebanese also voiced their anger that Lebanon had been used as a bargaining chip in the "game" of Middle East politics. I was asked a number of times what Americans thought about Lebanon, "did they think it was all bombs?", "why do Americans not support us? We are Christians" said another. I met an older, bohemian looking man who was an elite fighter with the Lebanese Forces before Samir Geagea took control of it. He spoke no English but he smiled at me, you could see the tension in his eyes when I mentioned I was living in Hamra (a mainly Muslim area of West Beirut). After years of fighting, the Muslims were still his enemy. I was asked a number of times when America or Israel would start supplying the Christians with weapons, I could do nothing more than say, "America wanted the area to be stable", and ask "why would you need the weapons?" The answer I got wasn't the aggressive one I had originally expected, "we need to protect ourselves, many Muslims, especially Nasrallah, don't want Christians to be in Lebanon anymore." The main thing I kept hearing though was that, "Christian Lebanon is a light to the Christians of the Middle East, we are the only sizable number left, we give the other Christians hope."
I thought a lot about the awful press Kataeb and its fellow Christian parties received following events such as the Sabra and Chatilla massacre (carried out by Kataeb commander Elie Hobieka), and the things written about them by authors such as Robert Fisk. I believe much of it has to do with "Western guilt." We as Westerners feel guilty about our colonial/imperialistic/corporate mindset/history and so we beat ourselves up for it, often seeing forces that our are complete enemy (take the PLO or Hizbollah) sympathetically. We choose to ignore the injustices our actual enemy is doing, simply because we feel guilty in doing so.
Kataeb has been pro-Western, its supporters identify themselves with the US and France, nevertheless Americans see the Sabra and Chatilla massacres and are completely disgusted by Kataeb. However, many Americans haven't even heard of massacres commited by Syrian groups or the Palestinians. There were many, such as the Damour Massacre (600-800 were killed, and a village was destroyed), or the Massacre in Chekka (hundreds were killed).
Even Muslim on Muslim massacres were barely covered, for instance there was a second Sabra and Chatilla massacre carried out by Shi'ite Amal fighters, up to 1200 Palestinians were killed, that's many more dead than in the Kataeb massacre of the Palestinians. If you ask many American intellectuals (especially in the group I am with here at LAU) who the Phalange were the typical answer is, "a bunch of crazed nazi Christians who murdered Palestinians." Whey you ask them about the other massacres, especially those against Christians, it is simply written off. Am I condoning Hobieka's or some in Kataeb's actions? Most definately not! The murder of innocent people is a deplorable act, and yes, many Christians feel as though the Palestinians deserved it. However, I am trying to be far more objective than many Middle Eastern "expert" popinjays, who want to make the Middle East into a "black and white", "good (represented by terrorist groups such as Hizbollah or the PLO) vs. evil (Kataeb, Israel, or even the United States)" world.
The other reason I was at Bayt Kataeb was because of the Metn elections. Metn is an area that encompasses portions of East Beirut up through Bikfaya. The reason there are elections is because the MP from the area, Pierre Amine Gemayel, was assassinated by pro-Syrian bullets in his car. His father, former Lebanese president Amine Gemayel was running to takeover his murdered son's seat. Almost out of the blue, Michel Aoun's Tayyar movement contested the seat by running Camille Koury. To many this was doing Pierre Amine Gemayel's murderers a service. Tayyar is now in the pro-Syrian camp (along with Hizbollah, Bachir Gemayel's killers---the SSNP, Amal, and Franjieh's Marada), it was Syria's goal to knock off as many March 14th politicians as possible.
The elections are planned for August 5th (a day after I leave to go back to the US) and many have speculated they will turn violent. For instance in Sassine there was a Kataeb/Ouwet (Lebanese Forces) convoy of cars with flags waving. As the stopped some Tayyar members tried to beat up the Kataeb supporters. Fist fights are becoming a common occurance. This all reminded me of the December 2006-Febuary 2007 protests that ended up in sporadic violence.
The situation isn't helped by the fact that both sides have armarments. In one instance I was shown a collection of AK-47s by one of the parties, and was then requested, semi-jokingly to "tell George Bush we need more." There was some glimmer of hope out of all of the troubles, while talking to a younger member of Kataeb, I asked if he hated Michel Aoun and his followers, he answered, "they are my cousins, my aunt, my uncle, we can't just go kill them." The Christians of Lebanon are, for lack of better
terms, split down the middle. I talked to a pollster friend in Bikfaya (the main area where the election will be held) and so-far it was 49% favoring Michel Aoun and 51% in favor of Gemayel. The closer these numbers get, the more tension will result. Already most Lebanese are anticipating a huge amount of violence. If Aoun wins this seat, his ultimate goal, the presidency of Lebanon is his for the taking. Here is a movie I made of Bayt Kataeb. I didn't film/wasn't allowed to film the building for security reasons.
This is a short clip I took inside an old Mercedes cab, it shows the Hizbollah/Tayyar/Amal/SSNP/Marada protest in the downtown area. If you look closely, you can see orange flags (Tayyar's color) with the Omega symbol on it. In addition some yellow Hizbollah flags are present.
Pictures:
1. Sassine Square. Note the Bachir Gemayel statue.
2. A ripped poster of Ramzi Irani, a kinapped member of the LF student union. Ramzi's body was found in the trunk of a car near my school on Rue Hamra. Next to the poster is a Lebanese Forces cross.
3. A side shot of the Bachir Gemayel memorial.
4. The Kataeb party sign when entering Bayt Kataeb. The sign reads: Kataeb Lebnania, "Lebanese Kataeb."
5. This is a shot in Sassine of a Tayyar convoy, led by a Chevy Surburban. They drove while waving orange flags and blasting Lebanese army songs out of the back on a huge stereo.
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75 comments:
your post saddened me,
These people are still living in a bygone era, with the idea that Lebanon was carved as a country to protect them from the overwhelming muslim forces that surround it. For them it seems, Lebanon must remain forever this way.
The rest of us however, we are trying for lebanon is for all lebanese era. We're not there yet ofcourse, but hopefully we'll get there one day. We should stand together as a whole, against all our enemies, not against one other.
It is sad that the people you interviewed think there is some plot to get them out of lebanon. That's exactly the same coucou logic that nasrallah is perpetuating to the shiites when he insinuated that there was a plot to get them all out of the south on ships and deposit them somewhere.
I wish your friends would try to get to know a few non-christian Lebanese instead of isolating themselves as they are doing. I think they'll be surprised and a little relieved at what they find. Perhaps then, they will loose their garrison mentality there'll be hope for us to unite this counrty.
Here's to hoping for a Lebanon, one country to encompass all its citizens.
Phillip I think you need to speak to more people and jot down more moderate views. As for the old man who was not too pleased to know that you live in Hamra, I would say too bad for him as he still dwells in the past. There is no doubt that a lot of Lebanese still live in the mentality of the 1930's, where it is all about ‘Muslim’ versus ‘Christian’, ‘pan-Arabism’ versus ‘Frenchization’. It is this extreme and polar typology of some Lebanese that hinders the way for new outlooks and new solutions. And as long as there is one extreme on one side, there will be another on the other side. An "action" calls for a "reaction".
Today, this attitude has waned. A vast number of Lebanese don't live in this past. They have learned to move on and the price was very high. Today, Lebanese people have learned to adapt to the idea that Lebanon is for everybody and this is a fact. I don’t think that Hezbollah, no matter how strong they are, would be able to turn Lebanon into an Islamist state. For starters, their statement of goals in their 1983 manifesto was changed in 1989. Plus, today they are aware that the Christians have a strong presence in Lebanon. The same goes for other political parties/motives that may wish to spread complete Christian hegemony over Lebanon.
You say that many Christians are pro-Israeli and pro-Western. It is no secret that many Lebanese, and not just the Christians, are pro-Israeli (I don’t want to include pro-western here as it does not necessarily meet with pro-Israeli), however, I believe that the majority of the logical and reasonable Lebanese know that Israel is a great threat to Lebanese sovereignty and prefer not to be associated with it.
Regardless, I would like to stress that the political instability Lebanon undergoes at the moment is merely political and not religious. It may take on a religious code because most of the Lebanese parties have affiliations with certain religious bodies. The irony of the matter is that the Sunnis once wanted a pan-Arab state with no affiliation with the West (unlike the Christians who wanted direct protection from France) and today the Sunnis are the ones who want to protect the Christians of Lebanon. This is how trivially complicated politics in Lebanon is. It is all political. It becomes religious because religion touches on the weak buttons of many people who then may feel they need to take a position as a religious obligation.
Anyways, I still believe that Lebanon is one of the few countries where you would see Christians, Muslims and other sects/religions living together peacefully. I am not being Utopian. If you look at our past disagreements and wars, it is not purely a religious trigger but rather a political one, which in order to rally supporters uses religion as its scapegoat. In Lebanon, it is all about ego and the religious hatred is never that deeply rooted.
Anonymous, first thank you for reading my blog and for the comment;
In response to some of what you said:
"the idea that Lebanon was carved as a country to protect them from the overwhelming muslim forces that surround it."
Many still believe that because its what we call a historical reality/truth. Lebanon WAS founded mainly for the Maronites. Lebanese Christians, especially the Maronites were at best a French client, after the French mandate the Maronites were asked if they wanted a state for Christians, the Maronites agreed but simply "bit off more than they could chew." ie by thinking they could maintain a "Christian country" and still have what the percieved to be a minority of Muslims.
"It is sad that the people you interviewed think there is some plot to get them out of lebanon...Perhaps then, they will loose their garrison mentality"
...While I am not making excuses for them there is good reason for such a mentality, earlier today I spoke to a Christian man who lived in West Beirut when the war started, when he was in the Lebanese Army (not a Christian militia) his brother was kidnapped. Why? Because he was a Christian. No other reason, the family was peaceful and felt it could live amoungst Muslims.
Again, Christians in the Middle East, since the Islamic invasions of the 600s and 700s have targeted Christians. More recently you have Christian families who came to Lebanon because they were being targeted by the Ottomans, or they were in the Armenian/Mandean Genocide...Many here have a history of being opressed by Muslims...With events such as Damour where a whole town was taken over and its occupants raped and murdered (note there were maybe 25 Christian militiamen there---at most) it is quite logical to see why they feel they are under seige.
PoshLemon, again, thank you for reading my blog and providing an insightful comment.
"Phillip I think you need to speak to more people and jot down more moderate views."
Kataeb used to be a MAIN Christian party, the MAIN leader of the Christian militias. As for its current influence, it is huge. To simply ignore what they feel and write them off as radicals is a bit ludacris. Just by jotting down what could be percieved as some to be more "moderate views" (hell, by some Nasrallah was considered a more "moderate" leader of Hizbollah) does reality on the ground a disservice in my opinion.
"I don’t think that Hezbollah, no matter how strong they are, would be able to turn Lebanon into an Islamist state. For starters, their statement of goals in their 1983 manifesto was changed in 1989."
For starters Hizbollah has been launching proto-coups in Lebanon for years now. Their mere ownership of heavy armarment make them an extreme force on the ground and makes them able to force decisions on the government. As for the comment on their manifesto, what you said is factually incorrect. The manifesto was originally released in 1985, and since then NO revision has been made...There was speculation in many academic circles that Hizbollah became more "Lebanese" (I find this funny considering one will find Khatemi and Khomeni posters in a Hizbollah office; they are by far not Lebanese) in the early 1990s (due to the organization changing a few aspects internally), but that action was on the behest of Iran and Syria who saw they could gain from Hizbollah's "resistance" credibility to control the Lebanese parliment.
"however, I believe that the majority of the logical and reasonable Lebanese know that Israel is a great threat to Lebanese sovereignty and prefer not to be associated with it."
How so? Syria by far represents a continuing and greater threat than Israel ever did, for crying out loud they STILL occupy portions of Lebanese soil, sponsor proxy militias, and launch repeated terrorist attacks on Lebanese politicians and civilians. Syria openly maintains its irredentalist tendencies when it comes to Lebanon even today.
When does Israel act? answer: when its attacked, are its methods always sound, no, but there is a GREAT difference in reference to being a "threat" to ones soveriegnty.
"and today the Sunnis are the ones who want to protect the Christians of Lebanon."
That is in no way true, currently the Sunnis (in the March 14th camp)see some Christians as allies, but this doesn't constitute defense of them. Each ethno-religious group in this country plays the self-interest card. Look at the Solidere construction downtown, that was NOT made for Christians and Muslims to live together in peace and harmony, that was designed for Gulf Arabs. I have yet to hear of a major Christian builder even taking part in some of the projects.
"The irony of the matter is that the Sunnis once wanted a pan-Arab state with no affiliation with the West (unlike the Christians who wanted direct protection from France)"
Again, I do feel this comment is factually correct, Christians wanted strong affiliation with the West, and Lebanon to have an "Arab face." If Lebanese Christian ties to France were so great, they sure didn't use them in 1958, instead they called upon America (leader of the West).
"It is all political. It becomes religious because religion touches on the weak buttons of many people who then may feel they need to take a position as a religious obligation."
Politics and religion are intertwined in this country. It was FOUNDED on sectarianism, and politicial killings ofter follow sectarian lines.
"In Lebanon, it is all about ego and the religious hatred is never that deeply rooted."
I am guessing ego also explains the continued hatred of the Turks and many Muslims by Armenians? I must say that Christians here regard themselves as different, they are seen by many as different, and have been targeted as such...
Thanks everyone.
Correction:
"Again, Christians in the Middle East, since the Islamic invasions of the 600s and 700s have targeted Christians."
meant to say, have BEEN targeted. sorry about that.
Phillip,
I must say that for an American, you know quite a lot about Lebanon. I am very impressed. I also apologize for this extremely long post.
Kataeb is huge. I never said otherwise and nor that they are radicals. However, I expect you speak to other Christians who belong to the SSNP, the FPM, the Marada, and others who do not affiliate themselves with any organization/movement/party. By not doing so and only confining oneself to one side of the story is a very narrow approach for someone who wants to get an in-depth understanding of a country. What is more effective than speaking to all its citizens, regardless. It will only further enrich your work/results.
As for Hezbollah’s manifesto, you are completely right. My memory deceived me. Yes, it was released in 1985. However, their stated goals are tolerable towards the Christians. Concerning the 1989 date, around that time Hezbollah released a statement that countered one of their main goals regarding creating an Islamist state. In just mere descriptive terms (I’m not quoting), the statement stressed that Hezbollah wishes to have an Islamist state however Hezbollah recognizes it is not possible due to the Christian presence in Lebanon.Regardless of what Hezbollah’s hidden agenda may be, they have been extremely and intelligently calculated in their approach to the Lebanese Christians. Correct me if I am wrong.
My sources are: “In the Path of Hizbullah” (Hamzeh, A., 2004), “Hizbullah: The Story from Within” (Qassem, N., 2005), “Hizbullah: Politics and Religion” (Saad-Ghorayeb, A., 2002).
As for your doubting their Lebanese identity, you are entitled to that. According to your logic, then I could say that posters of the Brazilian Flag and of Roberto Carlos in some Lebanese persons’ room might also raise suspicion concerning his Lebanese identity. (?!)
I am very disappointed at how you jump to point fingers at Syria, while you try to clear Israel’s case. I ask you to reconsider.
If you read what I wrote once again (please do), I never said that Israel is the ONLY threat to Lebanon. Basically, as a Lebanese, I consider everything/one/nation that wishes bad and implements bad actions on my country, a threat and an enemy. Yes, Syria is not an angel and not the ‘sister’ one would wish for. We still await the release of the Lebanese prisoners from Syrian jails.
You say that: Syria sponsors proxy militias, and launches repeated terrorist attacks on Lebanese politicians an civilians, so on, so on, so on (the list is too long). As for the terrorist attacks on Lebanese politicians and civilians, show me proof. This is all still being investigated at the moment (we all know how long the process took to see light) and no judgment will be made from my side until an official statement/conviction is made. The same goes for Syria’s sponsoring of proxy militias. But hold on a second, let’s give this statement benefit of the doubt. Did not Israel sponsor Lebanese militias during the civil war with money, training and arms? How could you confirm that Israel, until today, is not internally involved whatsoever?
As for Israel. You explain that Israel’s ‘methods are not always sound’. I think this is a very mediocre term to describe Israel’s fierce, brutal and vicious attacks on Lebanon. I can’t recall from the beginning until present any Syrian attack as resonating or as shocking as the Israeli. Yes, Syria for over 20 years ceased Lebanon from practicing its full sovereignty but it did not perform genocides, destroy infrastructure and aim for settlement. That also is a big threat to a nation’s sovereignty.
Simply, this is how I see both Syria and Israel. Syria is far from being a “good neighbor” but Israel is for sure a perpetrator and enemy.
Christians wanted strong affiliation with the West and for Lebanon to have an "Arab face." In the National pact, the “Arab face” was only to calm fears of the pro-Arabists (Muslims and some many Christians alike). As for the 1958 crisis, the call for U.S. help was a result of Camille Chamoun’s need to further bolster the relationship with the U.S.
Definitely, religion and politics go hand in hand in Lebanon. For crying out loud, it was founded on multi-confessional grounds. Earlier, I agreed with you that many Lebanese still live in the mentality of the 1930s, 1950s and 1970s - that of complete hatred and fear towards the "other". However, the description you give is somewhat very sinister and I, as a Lebanese who has lived and studied in Lebanon for over 10 years, refuse to accept claims of this being the prevalent attitude.
During the years of the civil war, Beirut was geographically broken up into two divisions (known as Eastern Beirut and Western Beirut) within military confines and with the ‘Green Line’ marking this division. Some Lebanese still recognize this division and speak of it. But no, not in 2007, it has been forgotten. It remains only in the minds of those who still live in the bigotry of that time.
In light of this, you responded to “anonymous” by recounting the story of the man who was kidnapped because he was a Christian. Many of my relatives were almost kidnapped or hurt by Christian militia men too (I am a Christian). I can also name countless Muslims who were attacked simply for being Muslims. The civil war was random, chaotic, irregular and everyone was a target.
As for what you said on the Christians having been attacked by Muslims since the 600s, many Muslim dynasties were very tolerant towards the Christians (it varies from country to country and governors). Plus, what would you make of the Crusades? If you contend that the Christians have always been targets and victims, let me tell you this. The Shiites greatly suffered under the Umayyads, Mamluks, and Ottomans. As for the Armenian hate towards the Turks, who did not hate the Ottoman Turks at one point? History speaks for itself.
Regardless, I must stand and say that stereotyping Muslims (as well as Christians) is, in nice terms, very confining.
"However, I expect you speak to other Christians who belong to the SSNP, the FPM, the Marada, and others who do not affiliate themselves with any.organization/movement/party. By not doing so and only confining oneself to one side of the story is a very narrow approach for someone who wants to get an in-depth understanding of a country. What is more effective than speaking to all its citizens, regardless. It will only further enrich your work/results."
I have (this is for Tayyar, I am going to do a post on awmiyye later); http://arzeljabal.blogspot.com/2007/07/seeing-orange.html
As for Marada, they were not very forthcoming for interviews, and if we are talking about how much "power" they have its negligible---the population of Zghortha is not that huge (the party has the support of about 3000, I am personally friendly with a Marada/Franjieh supporter at my university in the US).
I honestly found that comment a bit patronizing. Sorry, I've been going to class with a large about of masters/PhD students who all "KNOW" the truth, patronize those who are younger, yet never LISTEN to anyone else, so excuse me if this is coming of a bit harsh. This is what I am seeing, and I feel it is just as valid as what you experienced.
My goal in Lebanon (when I was there) and in the general Levant is to find the truth---no matter what. For the record, I do, however believe that these Christian groups (Kataeb/LF/Lebanese Nationalist groups like GoC) are incredibly underrepresented/misrepresented in
some cases (please read the ever famous Robert Fisk for more evidence). In addition I personally take more interest in them because in the future I would like to write about them. Just think of groups like that as a pet-interest for myself, so of course I will write a bit more about them.
"As for your doubting their Lebanese identity, you are entitled to that. According to your logic, then I could say that posters of the Brazilian Flag and of Roberto Carlos in some Lebanese persons’ room might also raise suspicion concerning his Lebanese identity. (?!)"
Did I doubt their so-called identity? No, I did say the simple truth that they are puppets/proxies for Syria and Iran...If you read what I said, "(I find this funny considering one will find Khatemi and Khomeni posters in a Hizbollah office; they are by far not Lebanese)" I was refering to Khatemi and Khomeni who are both Iranians. Top that off with the fact that Hizbollah in the largest sense was a creation of the IRGC.
You are comparing people who support soccer stars (also let me note many Leb ex-pats live in Brazil) to a political group that voices political, gets military, and logistical support from outside countries (Syria and Iran), and does their bidding...There is a big difference between wearing a German or Brazil soccer jersey and teaching the "wonderful political/military reforms of the Ayatollah Khomeni" ...That's apples and oranges.
Hizbollah, a supposedly "Lebanese party," voices its support of Syria...and of Syrian goals in Lebanon. They protested groups that called for Syrian troops to leave Lebanon. Syrian troops were regarded as an occupying force. Hizbollah protests (by starting wars)Israeli occupation of Shebba Farms, but says absolutely nothing when Syria occupies what would be the equivilent of Arizona if a part of the US was occupied...Doesn't seem as though they are quite the Lebanese nationalists they claim to be...Unless its against Israel and the West. The same goes for the SSNP which wants Lebanon's union with Syria (or at least to have Lebanon as a patron of Syria), could you imagine if the Republican or Democratic party(s) in the US was pro-Mexico and wanted the US to be part of a greater Mexico? Of course many nations have separatist parties, but one that wants union with another country, claims (say Lebanese) citizens are actually Syrian, and that Lebanon is really Syria is definitely not a "Lebanese" party.
"During the years of the civil war, Beirut was geographically broken up into two divisions (known as Eastern Beirut and Western Beirut) within military confines and with the ‘Green Line’ marking this division. Some Lebanese still recognize this division and speak of it. But no, not in 2007, it has been forgotten. It remains only in the minds of those who still live in the bigotry of that time."
All general knowledge, but what I saw in Lebanon was that MANY (personally, for me MOST I met, this includes professors still recognized the "green line" both Muslims and Christians. Two good examples: one of the people i know, who is an AVID supporter of Tayyar and Hizbollah, REFUSED to go to Hamra, and had never been past the Phonecia Hotel, her ENTIRE life. I had a discussion with a Muslim cabdriver...A CABDRIVER who refused to go to Achrafieh...I was so interested by his reluctance to go to Achrafieh I was willing to give him more money, but he just kept refusing. The few who didn't follow this "bigotry" were my Khaleeji friends from Bahrain and Saudi. Call it bigotry, but its a large reality on the ground.
"I am very disappointed at how you jump to point fingers at Syria, while you try to clear Israel’s case. I ask you to reconsider."
Show me where I've "jumped" to blame Syria...When most LOGICAL non-crazy conspiratorial evidence points at them, it usually IS them. This is the same sort of thing when I heard people say that Israel killed Bachir Gemayel---it has no basis in logic or fact.
"In light of this, you responded to “anonymous” by recounting the story of the man who was kidnapped because he was a Christian. Many of my relatives were almost kidnapped or hurt by Christian militia men too (I am a Christian). I can also name countless Muslims who were attacked simply for being Muslims. The civil war was random, chaotic, irregular and everyone was a target."
I am not doubting this in the least...I am simply giving the example of one man's experience, and experience that many Christians received by the hands of Muslims. This also draws into the question of identity which I talked about in one of my earlier posts. The Maronites don't consider themselves (and there is a lot of evidence, I am talking genetics here) Arabs, and in the "sea of Arabism/Islamism" of course they would be targeted---look at the Copts, or what's happening in Iraq with the Mandeans and Chaldeans...Targeted because they are Christians...Of course there are and were Sunnis targeting Sunnis and Shi'ites targeting Shi'ites, but the MAIN conflict of the period was Christian vs. Muslim...
"Christians wanted strong affiliation with the West and for Lebanon to have an "Arab face." In the National pact, the “Arab face” was only to calm fears of the pro-Arabists (Muslims and some many Christians alike). As for the 1958 crisis, the call for U.S. help was a result of Camille Chamoun’s need to further bolster the relationship with the U.S."
You don't actually believe that about the '58 Crisis? Chamoun called in US Marines in terms of the Eisenhower Doctrine; he claimed that Communists were going to take over. There was some truth in that, but it was more or less a modus-operandi to get foreign (read Western) troops on the ground. The pan-Arabist forces (lead by the pro-Soviet PSP) were trying to launch a (first) political, then military coup of the government.
"As for what you said on the Christians having been attacked by Muslims since the 600s, many Muslim dynasties were very tolerant towards the Christians (it varies from country to country and governors). Plus, what would you make of the Crusades? If you contend that the Christians have always been targets and victims, let me tell you this. The Shiites greatly suffered under the Umayyads, Mamluks, and Ottomans."
Scholars such as Bernard Lewis contend the Crusades were a militant reaction against Muslim invasions of Christian lands (say Byzantium, Spain, even Syria). Of course the Shia suffered, they were under the hand of Sunnis, some of whom considered them Kafir (look at the Tawkfiris now!), the conflict remains today (hell, in Lebanon Shia Hizbollah hates the Sunni Mustaqbal). Nevertheless BOTH groups, Shia and Sunni have targeted Chrisitians. You say that many Islamic governments were "tolerant" of Christians, that is if you consider the Jizzya and being a second class citizen with only certain jobs and religious opportunities afforded to you "tolerant," I am not saying at the time that Christian treatment of (let's say) Jews was any better, but it was FAR from liberal.
As for this comment about the Armenians, "As for the Armenian hate towards the Turks, who did not hate the Ottoman Turks at one point? History speaks for itself. "
The Ottomans were quite hated, no denying it...but the Ottomans didn't massacre up to 1.5 million Sunnis, Shia or even Druze...They targeted CHRISTIANS...Not just the Armenians who they claimed were "aiding the enemy" ie Russia, they targeted Assyrians, Syriacs and Mandeans, groups who had little contact with Western states until post-WW1.
"I can also name countless Muslims who were attacked simply for being Muslims. The civil war was random, chaotic, irregular and everyone was a target."
I most certainly am not denying that. It was the Hobbesian bellum omnium contra omnes. Just for the record there are many Greek Orthodox who hate Maronites and vis-versa...I am not trying to make Lebanon look like some super-polarized mess...It most definitely not...with many divergent opinions. Unfortunately to not cover groups like this, is ignoring a huge part of what IS Lebanon, and what many think and believe. Please do not label me as someone who is trying to oversimplify all that is Lebanon, but I do think it is a disservice not to talk about this.
"Regardless, I must stand and say that stereotyping Muslims (as well as Christians) is, in nice terms, very confining."
Stereotyping? Can we please not use words like this, I was covering a group so others (including myself) could learn...Just because you disagree with what they say, and some of the facts, please don't label me as stereotypical. I like to say it how it is...
"However, the description you give is somewhat very sinister and I, as a Lebanese who has lived and studied in Lebanon for over 10 years, refuse to accept claims of this being the prevalent attitude."
At the very least show me how it is "sinister" then we can talk. Again, I love to hear all points, and will cover just about anyone/anything. Just remember, because I am writing mostly op-ed style pieces, I do have my own views, you can disagree with them, that's fine, I love having the debates and truly value what you have to say (I really do appreciate it), but don't be hypocritical and in turn LABEL me.
Thanks
Phillip,
Welcome back home and again I apologize for this long post.
First, I don’t know how you found some of my words patronizing. I am definitely not here to teach you or teach anybody. Just like you, I am not only an academic/student but also a student of life. I don’t know the “truth” and I probably will never know the “truth” towards the end of my life and I most certainly don't carry on such a shameful attitude. Only an idiot would claim to know the 'truth'. Is there one truth? Is there complete knowledge?
Anyway, this is absolutely besides the topic. I did listen to what you had to say and responded accordingly. Just as you appreciate what I have to say, I highly appreciate what you have to say despite our discrepancies. We agree to disagree. Right?
You found that I was 'patronizing'. I found your response very aggressive but I'm not surprised. I must have pressed the wrong buttons. It’s okay. I won’t be aggressive here because I am enjoying this quite a lot. I hope it remains at this level and does not get 'too' serious.
No matter how big or small the Marada are, they are still part of the Lebanese make-up and we can not disregard them just because they represent a small portion of the Lebanese political and social arena. What they have to say is very important. They may be very small on the Lebanese scale but in Zghorta they are very big.
If your interest is directed towards the Christian groups (Kataeb/LF/GoC/etc…), fair enough. It is also your full right to have an interest over another. I am not beating you up for that at all. By the way, I read Robert Fisk’s “Pity the Nation”. What’s your point again?
I never negated that Hezbollah has very strong ties with Syria and Iran. Subhi al-Tufayli and Abbas al-Musawi traveled to Tehran for advice and consent from Khomeini, the supreme jurisconsult, concerning the name of the party and finally came up with the name ‘Hezbollah’, Party of God, owing to a verse in the Quran. I know. However, Kataeb and the Lebanese Forces had/has an extremely good relationship with Israel and I expect you to also acknowledge that. Like I said above, you are fully entitled to have a certain preference but please list all the facts.
Another point, which I mentioned in my response earlier on is that I consider any nation that wishes and implements bad on my country an enemy. If Syria is an enemy, so is Israel. A group having affiliation with Syria and Iran is as bad as a group with strong bonds with Israel (and the current 'useless' and 'racist' Bush administration).
The ‘poster’ example I gave you was only to convey the idea that no matter what, Hezbollah are still Lebanese and they represent a large faction of the Lebanese population (not just Shiites, trust me). In Lebanon, we are all Lebanese. You can’t just come and point at a group, discredit it and say that it is not Lebanese and its supporters are not Lebanese just because you don’t think what it stands for is not national enough. Obviously, it’s followers disagree with you. You may not find any logic or legitimacy in Hezbollah, but others do.
I think you are pointing fingers when you claim that Syria is behind the explosions and terrorist attacks in Lebanon when there is no proof YET and when investigation is still under way. And on the other hand, you describe Israel’s attacks on Lebanon as ‘not always sound’. ‘Not always sound’? Is that all you have to say about Israel, a Zionist racist state, that only knows how to perform mass genocides? I think you might like to check out what the Israeli scholar Ilan Pappe has to say on that.
Previously, I agreed with you on the fact that the Syrian administration is ‘no good’. I will not get into it again because it will be like going round in circles when I actually agree with you on that. My main disagreement with you is how you misrepresent the Lebanese society based on the accounts of 10 or 15 people. Maybe a bit more?
You call it a reality. I don’t understand which reality you’re actually talking about Phillip. Maybe you would kindly invite me and I promise you, I am buying. Again, let me remind you that I have lived and studied in my country for over 10 years and I have been to many areas in Lebanon and almost never experienced what you’re talking about.
“The Maronites don't consider themselves (and there is a lot of evidence, I am talking genetics here) Arabs, and in the "sea of Arabism/Islamism" of course they would be targeted---look at the Copts, or what's happening in Iraq with the Mandeans and Chaldeans...”
What is so special about the Maronites that ONLY their blood is purely non-Arab? What is so special about them that they have to be placed on pedestals and everyone else comes under? Why are other Non-Maronite Christians being disregarded? What about the Muslims? I know you are probably going to recount the history of Lebanon and the Maronites, etc… I know it and I understand why the Maronites are regarded as special. But I have also done my background research on the history of other peoples in Lebanon and allow me to recommend this book: The Shi‘is of Jabal Amil and the New Lebanon: Community and Nation State 1918-1943 (Chalabi, T., 2006)
By the way, a project sponsored by the National Geographic made findings that trace back not only the Christians but also the Sunnites and Shiites of Lebanon to the Canaanites.
http://phoenicia.org/genetics.html
Back to history and the Christian/Muslim conflict. I don’t know how I ended up in this position of siding with the Muslims. I think I just don’t like the use of rhetoric such as ‘Muslims have always targeted Christians’ etc… Or maybe, I don't like to stress it so much. For me it's just the very far past. If 1000 years ago people were stupid and fought one another on the basis of religion, why should we? If anything, we can only take lessons from history and better ourselves.
Under the Saracens, the Christians and Jews of Spain were treated well enough. Yes, the Christians had to pay a ‘jizya’ but that was about it. When King Ferdinand and Isabella took over in 1492, the Muslims and Jews were expelled. Before Islam, the Arabs had no power whatsoever. They fell under the Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire and it was not a pleasant experience for them at all.
I am not defending the Ottomans. I believe that other than their artistic and architecture innovations, they were absolutely bloody and barbaric. However, and don’t get me wrong, the Ottomans were more concerned with land than with religion. To make it easier for you to understand, the Ottomans of that time are like the Israelis of today. They wanted to occupy as much territory as possible and it happened that most of the nations they bordered were of the Christian faith. The Ottomans fought against the Safavids and being Muslims, Sultan Selim II had to obtain a juridical permission to go to war against them. You see, they attacked everybody, even their own.
The Ottomans were never religious at all. It was all a power tool. Sultan Selim II was an open drunkard who at one point had the Sheikhs permitting alcohol in the empire. My point is that to the Ottomans, truly and really, religion did not matter. Again, it was an instrument as it is today in both Eastern and Western countries. We all know how God speaks to Mr. President Bush. We all know how big religion is in America. We all know which audience he is trying to appeal to.
My problem is that I feel that you are very over-sympathetic with the Christians on the expense of the Muslims. You try your best to trace this whole conflict to the past and you do use enough *stereotypes*. I am not labeling you. If I have, I did not mean to and I apologize. I am just addressing certain points of your work that I do not necessarily agree with. About the ‘sinister’ issue, obviously you know I did not mean to call you ‘sinister’. The description you give of the attitudes of the Lebanese Christians and Muslims towards one another is what I find sinister. I don’t like it.
About me being a hypocrite, who isn’t? Aren’t we all hypocrites in our own right? Nobody’s perfect. I try.
“What is so special about the Maronites that ONLY their blood is purely non-Arab? What is so special about them that they have to be placed on pedestals and everyone else comes under? Why are other Non-Maronite Christians being disregarded? What about the Muslims? I know you are probably going to recount the history of Lebanon and the Maronites, etc… I know it and I understand why the Maronites are regarded as special. But I have also done my background research on the history of other peoples in Lebanon and allow me to recommend this book: The Shi‘is of Jabal Amil and the New Lebanon: Community and Nation State 1918-1943 (Chalabi, T., 2006)
By the way, a project sponsored by the National Geographic made findings that trace back not only the Christians but also the Sunnites and Shiites of Lebanon to the Canaanites.
http://phoenicia.org/genetics.html”
Here is the short and easy answer I will provide to that: I never discounted that ALL sects of Lebanese (Shi’ites, Sunnis, Druze, Maronites, Greek Orthodox, etc) have Phoenician ethnic roots. What I am saying (and what I noticed up from Bcharre right down to Achriafieh) was that Christians, especially Maronites do NOT consider themselves Arabs. This was a commonality with people I met in the Lebanese Forces, Kataeb, GoC, Ahrar, etc, they were “PHONECIAN” first. As for individuals not involved in ANY way with politics, one of my Maronite Christian professors identified herself as Phoenician, and was quite proud of that. I am sorry I forgot to include the fact that many non-Maronites also include themselves as Phonecian, but then again most Greek Orthodox identify with Awmiyye (SSNP) and see themselves as Arabs. In addition, the members of Hizbollah, Amal, Marada (I’ll admit I know one, and this is what he said to me), see themselves as “Arabs.” I never labeled anyone as “more special”, but the simple truth of the matter is that for the most part most Maronites consider themselves non-Arab, most Muslims do not. Of course genetic evidence shows that the Muslims are in many cases just as “Lebanese” as the Maronites, but most stick to their belief in Arabism. As for the study, I read it when it came out and had numerous discussions with people about it in Lebanon, also I would stray from using Phonecia.org as a source, they still believe that Phoenicians discovered America based on shoddy evidence.
As for the book, thank you for the suggestion, I will definitely read it if and when I get my hands on it.
“My problem is that I feel that you are very over-sympathetic with the Christians on the expense of the Muslims. You try your best to trace this whole conflict to the past and you do use enough *stereotypes*. I am not labeling you. If I have, I did not mean to and I apologize. I am just addressing certain points of your work that I do not necessarily agree with. About the ‘sinister’ issue, obviously you know I did not mean to call you ‘sinister’. The description you give of the attitudes of the Lebanese Christians and Muslims towards one another is what I find sinister. I don’t like it.”
Most conflicts can be traced to the past...Most analysts/historians/current event writers/journalists look at the past because it often influences the present and future. In the words of Edward Gibbon, author of History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, “All that is human must retrograde if it does not advance.” The descriptions I give are backed up by THEIR quotes, I didn’t just make it up for the hell of it, do you honestly believe I had some ulterior motive by what I wrote? I am sorry you think that I am “overly sympathetic to the Christians on the expense of the Muslims,” I surely don’t see it that way and I suggest you read other things I have written. As I stated before, I was in Lebanon and experienced a lot, I have an interest in said groups, in addition they were very forthcoming to be interviewed, I said what I saw and what I heard. On that topic I do have a quasi-problem with you calling the GoC a “Christian group” mainly because its ideology doesn’t sympathize with what could be considered “Christian,” top that off with the fact that 70-80% of its militia was Shi’ite). I am sorry, but I cannot change what I saw. You can laugh it off, be spiteful and say “well you know I lived there 10 years, I am Lebanese, you only talked to 15 people [which is so off base I don’t even care to respond] that’s not what its like,” that’s fine, I’m sorry I couldn’t be there for 10 years, nevertheless I was still there, I talked to “important people” and “common people” and this is what I saw. Would you prefer I lied and tell you what you want to hear? I also don’t see what actually being Lebanese has to do with any of it. If you experience something it shouldn’t matter what your race is. This is just another ploy used to say, “well a foreigner could NEVER really understand us.” That has a bit of xenophobia and isolationism in it. Frankly a reaction like that really offends me, I spent almost all of my time out of classes with Lebanese of different sects and in different areas, I was invited to peoples homes, and I’ll say it again: I wrote what I heard and saw. Hell, I even took pictures.
“The Ottomans were never religious at all. It was all a power tool. Sultan Selim II was an open drunkard who at one point had the Sheikhs permitting alcohol in the empire. My point is that to the Ottomans, truly and really, religion did not matter. Again, it was an instrument as it is today in both Eastern and Western countries. We all know how God speaks to Mr. President Bush. We all know how big religion is in America. We all know which audience he is trying to appeal to.”
Rhetoric aside, there are historical/factual errors with this, I’m not going to get into a sub-debate about it. In all honesty I agree with much of what you said, but still I am talking for the most part about what is PERCEIVED by people who were effected.
“Under the Saracens, the Christians and Jews of Spain were treated well enough. Yes, the Christians had to pay a ‘jizya’ but that was about it. When King Ferdinand and Isabella took over in 1492, the Muslims and Jews were expelled. Before Islam, the Arabs had no power whatsoever. They fell under the Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire and it was not a pleasant experience for them at all.”
Did you even read what I said above? “Before Islam, the Arabs had no power whatsoever” what a “progressive view,” I guess they needed religious fervor to conquer OTHER peoples, forcibly convert millions, kill and pillage. Remember, nothing is their responsibility...It was all because of outside influence that they reacted in such a way. Just for the record, because again your statement is factually incorrect, the Byzantine Empire never occupied an “Arab area,” Even at the height of their power they weren’t anywhere near the Arabian peninsula. As for the Romans they occupied about the same land mass that the Byzantine’s did.
Remember I said, “Of course the Shia suffered, they were under the hand of Sunnis, some of whom considered them Kafir (look at the Tawkfiris now!), the conflict remains today (hell, in Lebanon Shia Hizbollah hates the Sunni Mustaqbal). Nevertheless BOTH groups, Shia and Sunni have targeted Chrisitians. You say that many Islamic governments were "tolerant" of Christians, that is if you consider the Jizzya and being a second class citizen with only certain jobs and religious opportunities afforded to you "tolerant," I am not saying at the time that Christian treatment of (let's say) Jews was any better, but it was FAR from liberal.” Let me ask you why you brought it up yet again? You spoke about how we were “talking in circles” about Syria...Aren’t we doing the same with this?
“Back to history and the Christian/Muslim conflict. I don’t know how I ended up in this position of siding with the Muslims. I think I just don’t like the use of rhetoric such as ‘Muslims have always targeted Christians’ etc… Or maybe, I don't like to stress it so much. For me it's just the very far past. If 1000 years ago people were stupid and fought one another on the basis of religion, why should we? If anything, we can only take lessons from history and better ourselves.”
You asked the question, (I’m paraphrasing) “why should we fight because of religion,” again, I don’t agree with it, but it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t still continue, I just don’t see the logic in ignoring something you don’t like. If it is still around it should be exposed and talked about. Half the problem back then was that it wasn’t exposed for what it was and subsequently talked about by level headed people (I still wonder if such people exist though) It continues today, the same stupidity is still around. To you it is in the past, but I hate to break this to you, the hatred and conflict is STILL around. Also for the record I never said “Muslims always target Christians.” Please don’t take what I say out of context. Regarding the last line, I couldn’t agree more.
“I think you are pointing fingers when you claim that Syria is behind the explosions and terrorist attacks in Lebanon when there is no proof YET and when investigation is still under way. And on the other hand, you describe Israel’s attacks on Lebanon as ‘not always sound’. ‘Not always sound’? Is that all you have to say about Israel, a Zionist racist state, that only knows how to perform mass genocides? I think you might like to check out what the Israeli scholar Ilan Pappe has to say on that.”
Ok, originally I thought I was debating with someone who was actually logical and not absorbed by rhetoric (as you accused me of being), then I read the most hilarious/scary thing: “a Zionist racist state.” Did al Manar give you that one? You just needed to stick “Zionist” in there...Why though? Did you feel it had some negative connotation? Is it a DIRTY word? If that is the case you have no clue to what “Zionist” means, here is a definition:
this is for Zionism: “a worldwide Jewish movement that resulted in the establishment and development of the state of Israel.” A Zionist is either A. A Jewish supporter of that or B. A supporter of Zionism. I won’t even get into the outrageous claim that Israel only knows how to engage in genocide. My mouth is hanging open right now because of how insane all of that was.
I thought it was even more amusing (read hilarious) that a PhD student, who is intelligent and in my opinion well read, quoting Ilan Pappe (note I have his books too, but I don’t go around quoting them because of how factLESS they are). This is a man who has been thoroughly discredited in the academic community, publishes non-factual lies, and then says, “"My pro-Palestinian bias is apparent despite the desire of my peers that I stick to facts and the 'truth' when reconstructing past realities. I view any such construction as vain and presumptuous. . . . Mine is a subjective approach. . . ." What a great guy to give reference to. Here check this out: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=8&x_nameinnews=122&x_article=1299
You claim that you think the Syrian regime is “no good.” Then you tell me that there is no real proof that Syria pulled off bombings and assassinations, you also didn’t acknowledge in your response that Syria still, PHYSICALLY occupies Lebanon. Is that because it goes against your pre-conceived notions or because its not in line with your world view? When I read your responses it essentially sounded like: “well Syria occupied us for 30 years, sucked the Lebanese economy dry, murdered, disappeared, and still imprisons Lebanese but hey, compared to those ‘evil Jews’ down south, its nothing, so let’s not acknowledge it.”
Regarding the bombings who do you think did it? Let me guess, will you give the same excuse SANA gives? Did the MOSSAD do it? If so I would like to see you provide proof, more proof than what already points to Damascus. I assure you, you won’t find it because it doesn’t exist. If you want proof please read my earlier posts again. For instance the assassination of Pierre Amine Gemayel was most definitely a Syrian operation. Remember the same car that was used in the assassination was stolen and used by the PFLP-GC, a group that is a direct Syrian proxy. Funny, last time I checked Israel didn’t have any proxies left in Lebanon. Syria does. They have Hizbollah, numerous armed Palestinian groups and STILL occupy parts of Lebanon.
PS there is plenty of proof of what Syria has done.
I am starting to think this back and forth is a complete waste of my time. I am sorry I come off so aggressive, but you are correct, you hit certain buttons. These buttons are called “factual inaccuracies used when criticizing Phillip.” I will agree with you and say we are “all hypocritical,” but if that’s so try to keep it to a minimum when in a debate, it only discredits one more and doesn’t add to any discussion. All of this will look as though I was just pissed off when I wrote it, I truly wasn’t, I was just baffled by certain responses from you that were so over the wall I was tempted to just write you off. Fine, say I am biased, disagree with what I have seen, I don’t mind, I disagree in the fullest, but that is your opinion. Sometimes I write pieces to solicit a response from people (such as this Kataeb one), but I promise you I only use facts and quotes I have heard from numerous people. I am sorry it doesn’t fit what you have decided most Lebanon feels, but I assure you it is not what I perceived in Lebanon nor saw with my own eyes. Many Lebanese would agree with me (I have a list of emails from a number of them), you don’t, fine. I accept that, but please don’t get so personal and nasty and essentially say I am just some hack. I worked hard and met with many people. Simple as that. You had experiences and so did I. Your experience(s) are no better nor more factual than mine. We simply saw different things in the same place. I will not change what I have seen because someone disagrees with it, that would be lying, and direct censorship, something I don’t believe in.
Phillip,
actually, earlier on this year I had a little project where I gave out a questionnaire to around 25 Lebanese males and females (age range 18-25) of almost all confessions. The topic was about the Lebanese identity. The answers were varied, from which we can deduce that the Lebanese certainly do have an identity crisis. Obviously this little questionnaire is not at all representative but it gives a slight picture.
Answering the idea that most Maronites consider themselves Phoenicians: actually, I had around 7 Maronites who answered the questionnaire and one guy's answer to a certain question was interesting enough. He is from a very well groomed political family, which has a very prominent history in Lebanon and definitely a history opposed to the Syrian Regime. The question was: do you consider yourself a Lebanese Phoenician, or a Lebanese Syrian or a Lebanese Arab? Surprisingly, his answer was the latter (knowing him, I was baffled). I am not a Maronite but I have many direct relatives who are Maronites and do not consider themselves Phoenicians. But also, I have encountered many Maronites and others who do consider themselves Phoenicians. I don’t know if the majority do or not. I don’t think you do as well. Has there been any formal statistic done on the matter? Now whether genetically that is true, I also don’t know. People have had intermarriages and genes are mixed now. I don’t think there is a pure Phoenician race as such.
I never insinuated that you are a foreigner and because of that you will never understand the Lebanese complex. Plus, I can’t believe you are calling me xenophobic! *lol*
Again, let me remind you that I have lived and studied in my country for over 10 years and I have been to many areas in Lebanon and almost never experienced what you’re talking about.
This is what I said in my previous response. Now, how did that offend you? I was trying to explain to you that I have lived there long enough to be able to say that I have not experienced the attitude you are describing. It seems that whatever I say happens to offend you somehow. Sometimes it is not good to read too much between the lines because probably there is nothing to read. I really don’t like how you have put yourself in the aggressive position and forced me to go on the defensive.
Regarding what the information I gave on the Ottomans, you said:
Rhetoric aside, there are historical/factual errors with this, I’m not going to get into a sub-debate about it. In all honesty I agree with much of what you said, but still I am talking for the most part about what is PERCEIVED by people who were effected.
I am lost. Do you agree or do you not? Do you think I also made a factual error here? Okay, let me quote some of my sources again: The Sultans (Barber, N., 1973), Osman’s Dream (Finkel, C., 2005), Inside the Seraglio (Freely, J., 1999).
Okay, here was my mistake: I should have used Syrians (pertaining to Greater Syria) but rather I used Arabs.
What I was trying to say is that when the Syrians were under the Byzantines, they were tortured to the extreme. Generally, the Muslims were more tolerant towards the Christians than the Byzantines were tolerant towards the pagans, Jews and the Christians who did not follow the teachings of the Orthodox Church and the several church councils such as the famous Council of Chalcedon. It was a time of forced conversions, torture, whipping, burning and more for every non-convert or even those Christians that followed the teachings of Nestorius, Arius, Monothelitism, Monophysitism and so on. Thus, to counter your point that throughout history the Muslims have victimized the Christians, I say the Byzantines did much worse than the Muslims.
As a matter of fact, on the Muslims taking over from the Byzantines, Michael the Syrian says: "…seeing the wickedness of the Romans who, everywhere they had the upper hand, were cruelly plundering our churches and monasteries and tormenting us without pity, brought to the southern regions the sons of Ismael, to deliver us from [their] hands… and it was of no insignificant benefit to us to be liberated from the cruelty, spite, wrath, and zeal they showed to us, and thus find peace."
I don't usually ignore something because I don’t want to talk about it. Obviously, I am talking to you. You are not saying many things I like but I am still talking to you. I am not ignoring the fact that religion is not a main trigger for disagreements, civil unrest and what not, especially in Lebanon. Lebanon’s history testifies for itself. In all my previous responses I never denied that religious hatred does not exist.I am with you on the fact that if "it exists, let us talk about it and let us find solutions." Only, my argument is that it does not exist on the scale you give. Just like you say that you have spoken to people and written what you heard and saw, I too have spoken to people and I am telling you what I heard and saw. It is my opinion, too.
Thanks for the brief course on Zionism. I was waiting for someone to give me that lesson. If you know the history, context and connotations that underlie the Zionist ideology, you would agree as to why I had to refer to Israel as a “Zionist racist state.”
So according to you and the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America, Ilan Pappe is not good enough. I wonder if the University of Exeter agrees with you and CAMERA on that. Here in London, Ilan Pappe’s views and books are very well celebrated at my school (which is a top 10 school in the UK, so I hope you don’t jump to discredit it as well) and several other prominent schools. I think things work in a different way in America.
Let’s look at CAMERA’S profile, which they give in their website:
The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America, or CAMERA, was founded in Washington, DC in 1982 by Winifred Meiselman, a teacher and social worker. Mrs. Meiselman formed CAMERA to respond to the Washington Post’s coverage of Israel’s Lebanon incursion, and to the paper’s general anti-Israel bias.
This says it all.
Back to Syria. If I think Syria is ‘no good’, this does not mean that I have to jump and accuse the Syrians of every misfortune that befalls Lebanon. Come on! How stupid is that. The same applies for the Mossad. I am not pointing fingers at anyone. I just speculate but I don’t accuse.
My final message to you: I am not nasty, but thanks.I don’t see where your claims of me being nasty or very personal apply throughout my responses. If anything, I have been myself: very polite. As a matter of fact, I think you are the one who put yourself in the position of getting very personal and nasty towards me. Think about it. I also did not call you a hack nor did I indirectly suggest it. As a matter of fact, I expressed to you my appreciation for you and the very impressive fact that you have studied Lebanon so well. I have not personally met a foreigner who is well conversed on the topic of Lebanon. I salute you for that but then you go ahead and accuse me of saying things I did not say, neither directly nor indirectly. I am also not here to force you to change your opinions. I highly respect your opinions but I just do not necessarily agree with you. I am here to debate. I am here to give you my side of the story and explain to you why I think you may be mistaken. I accept and expect the same from you… but while keeping polite.
Anyways, I like when you say that "we simply saw different things in the same place". That’s true and that’s a better way of ending this "back and forth" thing in order to prevent me from "wasting anymore of your time."
hi Philip
thank you for ur visit to lebanon the best plac in teh worls..
i was wondering are you Lebanese?
Thank you for ur visit to lebanon
Nice blog
Are you lebanese?
Talk about Bias
Kataeb IS a fascist party you seemed to forget the part to mention that Gran dad Gemayel founded it after and on inspiration to a visit to NAZI GERMANY.
They hate arabs and try to disidentify with them because it does not suit their psudeo-westernized ideals and neo-con idols. Which range from bush,mccain to Palin.
lol thats how pathetic they are.
They try to be so hard something they are not.
Nasrallah hates christians?
the only ones who are full of hate are them.
oh next you'll be reciting brigite Gabriel.
are you kidding me?
Phalange KILLED way more christians than shiite ever did during the civil war why dont you asked what they did to their "christian" brothers marada and the tigers?
These people are backstabbers and traitors by nature they would of sided with Orthodox serbs against their fellow catholics if given a chance.
These people have a nerve to call Nasrallah and hezbollah hater of christians.
In 2000 after their israeli allies left Jnoub thanks to the resistance
the traitors of the SLA (many of whom were maronites) were left hanging to dry by Israel
Do you know what Hezbollah did to them?
Did they massacre these ppl and declare a jihad against all non muslims in the mostly shiite south?
NO - they handed the war criminals to authoroties and showed mercy and forbid revenge attacks on the rest.
Do you think Kataeb and LF would of done the same?
As if these wanabe crusading french idiots know the meaning of the word love and mercy.
HAHAHA Amine Gemayel is a traitor when he made a deal with sharon during the 80s and jaja is a war criminal who people in chouf would say during the war as they were expelled by his new best friend now who actually KILLED CHRISTIANS WaWalid Joumblat
"where samir geagea steps foot no christian remains"
You talk of damour they use it only as an excuse to justify their onslaughts.
but most these ppl brag over the massacres they did during the war and still live in this victimization mentality even though the war was partly their fault!
They let the PLO into the country into the first place Not the Palestinians not the Muslims or Leftists BUT THEM!
it was a monster THEY created!
These are not just words anyone who has encountered these fascists know their true nature.
know what I say is the TRUTH!
hi all.....i think it is lovely to see the results of next elections...14 march peacefull plans have a big support from most lebanese..habbal movement and moushitamy racisism coolation will be sad by results...ishtiraki....
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